OK so time to start a new thread.

I submit that the best winch I have ever driven, been launched by etc is
the home built single drum monstrosity currently at Parys.

Metrics used to come to this conclusion would be safety and cost / launch.

It was built in the 1960s by Hans Lobach while he was flying at
Underberg. When they upgraded to a more powerful double drum design the
Parys bunch purchased it.

It has a donor vehicle was a Ford Ranchero 1ton pickup -
352 CID Ford Windsor V8 (170Kw when new - somewhat less now)
3 speed transmission - launched in second with the kickdown disabled.
Standard (rumoured to be 4.16:1) axle mounted inverted with a shortened
propshaft.

So - we have one machine that has been launching training two seaters
for more than half a century now.
No one has been killed launching with it in those 50 years. As far as I
know the most serious injury has been a broken finger when someone
pulled on the cable while the winch driver was removing a loop on the drum.

Still has the same engine, same gearbox etc. Remarkable considering it
averages around 50-60 launches a weekend. So it has somewhere between
100,000 and 150,000 launches behind it without major overhaul.

I have launched in Bergfalkes, Blaniks, Std Cirrus and Kestrel 19 on
it. Others have launched Grob 103 and other "heavies".
Interestingly considering the arguments about more sophistication and
instrumentation and all the rest of it the operating procedure is very
simple. The rev counter and speedometer have long been disconnected - it
was found far better for the winch driver to learn to read the catenary
on the cable and adjust tension appropriately to the actual circumstances.

Purchase / build cost is lost to the mists of time. Hans Lobach
celebrated 60 years of gliding taking a launch on "his" winch a couple
of years ago - but could not recall what it cost to build. Cost per
launch is so low the club winch cost is < $4 - and that is with the
thing drinking 800ml of premium per launch. Newer engines would be a lot
more efficient.

Apart from the head gear (rollers and guillotine) there is little that
wears out. 2.8mm class B spring steel single strand wire works great, We
get about 1000 launches from a cable before it starts work hardening and
breaking.

That winch is probably the only reason such a small club can continue to
operate economically.

That said it is now in serious need of a little TLC - mainly cosmetic -
to prevent people mistaking it for a heap of scrap metal at the end of
the runway...

The only problem is no-one wants to stop flying long enough to do the
prettying up.

So - who has a better winch? (on metrics of safety over life and cost /
launch)

If anyone wants to see pictures - The carburettor clogged up a jet on a
nice day. Serious attention required. ;-)

http://www.whisperingwings.org.za/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album10&id=P1010008a

A couple more pictures here:
http://www.whisperingwings.org.za/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album10&page=7

Happy winching.

In message >, Bruce
> writes
<snip>
>Others have launched Grob 103 and other "heavies".
(All weights AFAIK)

ASH 25 at MTOW? (750kg I think, same as the Nimbus 4D)

K21 is 600kg, Grob 103 is 580kg - 676kg depending on the version, Duo is
700kg.

<Snip>

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

Surfer! wrote:
> In message >, Bruce
> > writes
> <snip>
>> Others have launched Grob 103 and other "heavies".
> (All weights AFAIK)
>
> ASH 25 at MTOW? (750kg I think, same as the Nimbus 4D)
>
> K21 is 600kg, Grob 103 is 580kg - 676kg depending on the version, Duo is
> 700kg.
>
> <Snip>
>
Duo XLT is now 750 kg...

And yes - that is why the Drakensberg guys built a new Chevy 454 winch
with much more power. (For some reason this is the "small block" - I
just wonder what it is compared to?)

There were aparently loooong seconds on the uphill launch with the Grob
twin astir that were too uncomfortable at Underberg.

A short uphill runway at 5200MSL on a hot summer day is not a good place
to have the winch ambling up to full speed...

For our use the Ford has about enough for a safe, no wind launch with a
L13 at max weight and density altitude in the 8-9000 feet range.

No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
about that.

We should establish a base where the winch launching is permanently
available and have the FBOs offer other services there. My argument to
the FBOs has been that they could make as much or more money offering
a winch launch at $10, because there would be many more launches and
more people flying not only because it would be cheaper, but also
because it would be much more fun. Anyone who has winch launched knows
it is much more fun than an areo tow.

Look at the professional operations in Europe, they have large
operations with winches and also offer areo tows, which also keep them
busy because there are always reasons to do an areo tow.
Unfortunately, my discussions on this topic always falls on deaf ears,
so maybe they know something I don't, but I suspect it's a fear of
changing to an new method (for them) and business model.

My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
winch is - if not more so.

In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
Tom

Bruce wrote:

<Interesting winch history mostly snipped...>
> Still has the same engine, same gearbox etc. Remarkable considering it
> averages around 50-60 launches a weekend. So it has somewhere between
> 100,000 and 150,000 launches behind it without major overhaul.
>
<Snip...>
> Purchase / build cost is lost to the mists of time. Hans Lobach
> celebrated 60 years of gliding taking a launch on "his" winch a couple
> of years ago - but could not recall what it cost to build. Cost per
> launch is so low the club winch cost is < $4 - and that is with the
> thing drinking 800ml of premium per launch. Newer engines would be a lot
> more efficient.
Your club is lucky indeed to have this sort of paid-for,
safely-functioning bit of hardware! Puts y'all in the happy position of
being able to decide what sort of financial model you want to use (e.g.
"cheap launches" at one end of the model spectrum, as contrasted to
"capital improvement fund" at another end). Definitely more flexible
(and recession-resistant) than "gotta pay off this beastie's mortgage"
rigid pricing!

<Snip...>
> That winch is probably the only reason such a small club can continue to
> operate economically.
"Ayup...this in a nutshell is (to me, anyway) the crux of 'tension
control' winching gaining acceptance.

Assuming at least one 'cheapie-version/technology-demonstrator'
tension-control winch can be brought to operational use somewhere in the
world, then 'Father Time' will be the judge as to whether or not safety
is statistically-enhanced in practice...while he'll also be keeping a
keen eye on maintenance costs/issues.

Meanwhile, the new technology - for better or worse - will be competing
against existing technology, cost-wise. Seems to me there's no realistic
way to remove practical economics from this particular playing field...

Regards,
Bob W.

On Jul 14, 12:51*pm, tommytoyz > wrote:
> No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
> launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
> the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
> even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
> about that.
>
> We should establish a base where the winch launching is permanently
> available and have the FBOs offer other services there. My argument to
> the FBOs has been that they could make as much or more money offering
> a winch launch at $10, because there would be many more launches and
> more people flying not only because it would be cheaper, but also
> because it would be much more fun. Anyone who has winch launched knows
> it is much more fun than an areo tow.
>
> Look at the professional operations in Europe, they have large
> operations with winches and also offer areo tows, which also keep them
> busy because there are always reasons to do an areo tow.
> Unfortunately, my discussions on this topic always falls on deaf ears,
> so maybe they know something I don't, but I suspect it's a fear of
> changing to an new method (for them) and business model.
>
> My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
> should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
> suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
> winch is - if not more so.
>
> In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
> managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
> would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
> operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
> will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
> Tom

Don at Cross Country Soaring reports getting 2400ft launches at his
operation off the local municipal airport. The synthetic performance
ropes make this possible, even with runway lights. The Soaring
Sooners are based at another small municipal airport and operate a
winch there. Caprock Soaring operates a winch parallel to the main
runway at Littlefield. Finger Lakes Soaring Club winches at Dansville
Municipal Airport. Orange County Soaring Association winches from
Hemet Airport. There are others. It is doable, but the setting is
important also as more space is highly desirable.

There been some movement on mobile winch liability coverage which may
well open up several more venues. A good winch and a two-seater may
see the return of the 'barn stormers';^)

Frank Whiteley

Orange County Soaring Association winches from
Hemet Airport.

You might want to check which clubs really operate out of airports in
the USA. Just because a club owns a winch, does not mean they winch
from where they are normally based. The Orange County club for
instance certainly does not winch out of the Hemet airport, they only
winch out of 29 Palms on occasion. So I throw your stats all into
doubt. I am not aware of any publicly owned airport in the USA that
allows dual winch/regular traffic operations. Of course I could be
ignorant and wrong. It would be a good exercise to factually check if
there really are any and then see how they resolved the liability/
operational issues.
Tom

I stand corrected,

The Orange County Folk do operate via winch out of Hemet -
congratulations to them.
Tom

At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
>No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
>launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
>the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
>even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
>about that.
>
>
>My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
>should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
>suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
>winch is - if not more so.
>
>In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
>managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
>would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
>operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
>will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
>Tom


The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception
of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an
established airport.
In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to
operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.

Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the
proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can
be very much shorter.

Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a
field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the
prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can
launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can
even bungey launch off it.

On Jul 14, 7:30*pm, Don Johnstone > wrote:
> At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
>
>
>
> >No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
> >launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
> >the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
> >even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
> >about that.
>
> >My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
> >should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
> >suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
> >winch is - if not more so.
>
> >In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
> >managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
> >would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
> >operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
> >will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
> >Tom
>
> The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception
> of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an
> established airport.
> In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
> airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
> themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to
> operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.
>
> Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the
> proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can
> be very much shorter.
>
> Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a
> field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the
> prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can
> launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can
> even bungey launch off it.

That's exactly the approach taken at King Mountain Glider Park (long
an HG venue). Develop the site.
http://www.kingmountaingliderpark.com/

King Mountain Safari, Aug 17-22

Frank Whiteley

>"Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message ...
>On Jul 14, 7:30 pm, Don Johnstone > wrote:
> >
> > The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception
> > of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an
> > established airport.
> > In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
> > airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
> > themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to
> > operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.
> >
> > Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the
> > proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can
> > be very much shorter.
> >
> > Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a
> > field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the
> > prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can
> > launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can
> > even bungey launch off it.
>
>That's exactly the approach taken at King Mountain Glider Park (long
>an HG venue). Develop the site.
>http://www.kingmountaingliderpark.com/
>
>King Mountain Safari, Aug 17-22>
>
>Frank Whiteley

Here is a GoogleEarth place mark for the King Mountain Glider Park
http://www.soaridaho.com/Flights/GE/King_Mtn_Glider_Park.kmz

Wayne

In article > Don Johnstone > writes:
>At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
>>No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
>>launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
>>the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
>>even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
>>about that.
>>
>>
>>My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
>>should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
>>suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
>>winch is - if not more so.
>>
>>In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
>>managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
>>would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
>>operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
>>will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
>>Tom
>
>
>The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception
>of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an
>established airport.
>In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
>airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
>themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to
>operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.
>
>Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the
>proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can
>be very much shorter.
>
>Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a
>field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the
>prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can
>launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can
>even bungey launch off it.


I would have thought that the UK would have licensing requirements for airports,
as many states here do. Before spending the money for the necessary improvements
one would want to make sure that the start of activity would not be followed by
a cease and desist order from the local or state government.

Similarly, I would want to make very certain that the activity had appropriate
insurance coverage; the insurance company will also most likely want to see proof
of appropriate licensing.

Getting approval would require finding an area where the potential neighbors
would not be at local council meetings objecting to the activity and expressing
their fear of these powerless aircraft plummeting into their houses.

The cost would be substantial. I don't know the width requirement to have
parking for aircrafts and cars as well as buildings/hangars, along with safe
space for the rope/cable to fall after release (and hopefully some safe places
for low releases to go), but if one were to guess 300 feet wide (probably too
small) by 6000 feet long (for a 2000 foot cable), it comes out to over 41
acres.

I don't know how far from population centers one would have to go for this,
but it would not work near here -- the land is just way too costly.


Power pilots are very concerned about the closure of airports due to pressure
from communities building up around them, and several are lost each year. Creating
and opening replacements is just astoundingly difficult.


Alan

You may only need a small site for lobbing gliders onto a ridge by winch,
but remember that you still need enough space to allow for safe landing
options after a launch failure.

Derek Copeland


At 04:14 15 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:
>
>>"Frank Whiteley" wrote in message =
...
>>On Jul 14, 7:30 pm, Don Johnstone wrote:
>> >
>> > The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the =
>exception
>> > of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates
=
>from an
>> > established airport.
>> > In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
>> > airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
>> > themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft
=
>to
>> > operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.
>> >
>> > Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times =
>the
>> > proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length
=
>can
>> > be very much shorter.
>> >
>> > Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find
=
>a
>> > field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing =
>the
>> > prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you =
>can
>> > launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill =
>you can
>> > even bungey launch off it.
>>
>>That's exactly the approach taken at King Mountain Glider Park (long
>>an HG venue). Develop the site.
>>http://www.kingmountaingliderpark.com/
>>
>>King Mountain Safari, Aug 17-22>
>>
>>Frank Whiteley
>
>Here is a GoogleEarth place mark for the King Mountain Glider Park
>http://www.soaridaho.com/Flights/GE/King_Mtn_Glider_Park.kmz
>
>Wayne
>

The UK requirements for an airfield are that you have to get Local
Authority Planning permission (not always easy), unless you can prove
existing and continuous use, and CAA approval for winch launching to 2000
or 3000ft AGL, mostly so that this can be marked as a hazard on airmaps.
This is for unlicenced airfields that don't have an official ATZ.

There are some additional requirements for CAA licenced airfields
including a radio station and manned air traffic control for the published
opening hours. This does entitle you to an ATZ.

You can also operate out of a farmers field with his permission for a very
limited number of days per year. I believe the only requirements for this
are to inform the local police and to post a NOTAM.

The German and French model seems to be to have mixed gliding and light
aircraft airfields. In the UK they are largely separate. The ones that are
combined, such as Booker/Wycombe Air Park tend not to allow winch
launching. A number of Service Gliding Clubs operate at active RAF
airfields, but normally only at weekends and other specified days.

3500 x 300 feet would be an adequate size for a small winch launching
site, but the bigger the better really.

Derek Copeland


At 06:26 15 July 2009, Alan wrote:
>
> I would have thought that the UK would have licensing requirements for
>airports,
>as many states here do. Before spending the money for the necessary
>improvements
>one would want to make sure that the start of activity would not be
>followed by
>a cease and desist order from the local or state government.
>
> Similarly, I would want to make very certain that the activity had
>appropriate
>insurance coverage; the insurance company will also most likely want to
>see proof
>of appropriate licensing.
>
> Getting approval would require finding an area where the potential
>neighbors
>would not be at local council meetings objecting to the activity and
>expressing
>their fear of these powerless aircraft plummeting into their houses.
>
> The cost would be substantial. I don't know the width requirement to
>have
>parking for aircrafts and cars as well as buildings/hangars, along with
>safe
>space for the rope/cable to fall after release (and hopefully some safe
>places
>for low releases to go), but if one were to guess 300 feet wide
(probably
>too
>small) by 6000 feet long (for a 2000 foot cable), it comes out to over
41
>acres.
>
> I don't know how far from population centers one would have to go for
>this,
>but it would not work near here -- the land is just way too costly.
>
>
> Power pilots are very concerned about the closure of airports due to
>pressure
>from communities building up around them, and several are lost each year.

>Creating
>and opening replacements is just astoundingly difficult.
>
>
> Alan
>

On Jul 15, 12:26*am, (Alan) wrote:
> In article > Don Johnstone > writes:
> >At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
> >>No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
> >>launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
> >>the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
> >>even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
> >>about that.
>
> >>My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
> >>should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
> >>suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
> >>winch is - if not more so.
>
> >>In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
> >>managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
> >>would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
> >>operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
> >>will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
> >>Tom
>
> >The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception
> >of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an
> >established airport.
> >In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
> >airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
> >themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to
> >operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.
>
> >Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the
> >proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can
> >be very much shorter.
>
> >Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a
> >field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the
> >prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can
> >launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can
> >even bungey launch off it.
>
> * I would have thought that the UK would have licensing requirements for airports,
> as many states here do. *Before spending the money for the necessary improvements
> one would want to make sure that the start of activity would not be followed by
> a cease and desist order from the local or state government.
>
> * Similarly, I would want to make very certain that the activity had appropriate
> insurance coverage; the insurance company will also most likely want to see proof
> of appropriate licensing.
>
> * Getting approval would require finding an area where the potential neighbors
> would not be at local council meetings objecting to the activity and expressing
> their fear of these powerless aircraft plummeting into their houses.
>
> * The cost would be substantial. *I don't know the width requirement to have
> parking for aircrafts and cars as well as buildings/hangars, along with safe
> space for the rope/cable to fall after release (and hopefully some safe places
> for low releases to go), but if one were to guess 300 feet wide (probably too
> small) by 6000 feet long (for a 2000 foot cable), it comes out to over 41
> acres.
>
> * I don't know how far from population centers one would have to go for this,
> but it would not work near here -- the land is just way too costly.
>
> * Power pilots are very concerned about the closure of airports due to pressure
> from communities building up around them, and several are lost each year. *Creating
> and opening replacements is just astoundingly difficult.
>
> * * * * Alan

My experience talking to local airport managers in the US is they are
desperate for more 'action' at their airports. At current fuel
prices, general aviation traffic is way down. They don't really care
what it is as long as they can log some takeoff and landings - to keep
their jobs. Most would welcome a glider operation although there are
some don't.

There are many GA airports that could support a winch operation. Many
have all the taxiways on one side of the runway which leaves a 10'
strip of grass between the far edge of the runway and the row of edge
lights - the rope can be pulled out there and be totally out of
everyone's way. Gliders can be kept out of the way on a taxiway stub
or on the grass until it's time to launch.

The launch itself takes only about 35 - 45 seconds and the rope (not
wire) doesn't "fall", it gets pulled onto the winch drum with the
glider end with it's parachute falling right in front of the winch.
Synthetic Spectra/Dyneema, unlike steel cable, wouldn't hurt anything
if it were to fall on it anyway.

There's usually room to park the winch well beyond the runway
departure end in the over run area so the rope never lands on the
"operations area". Airport managers have been known to temporarily
remove runway end lights for a day's winch operation.

Over all, a quick winch operation wouldn't need the runway and the
airspace over it for more than 2 or 3 minutes. (I've seen heavy iron
guys set on the runway waiting for departure clearance or maybe doing
a checklist for much longer than that.)

At the Fariboult, MN Municipal Airport, there was an enthusiastic
crowd of airplane owners watching us.

I agree with Bill that a winch launch shouldn't hold up other aircraft
departures for more than a couple of minutes, and that aircraft can still
land as long as they can land well short of where the cable is; they
won't be able to safely do 'go-arounds' though.

Our experience with synthetic cable was that it dropped more slowly, even
with a tiny parachute, and drifted further sideways in a crosswind. We
would wind in at about the same speed whether using steel or synthetic
cable. Flying into a winch cable of either type would tend to spoil your
day somewhat!

Derek Copeland

At 01:47 17 July 2009, bildan wrote:
>
>My experience talking to local airport managers in the US is they are
>desperate for more 'action' at their airports. At current fuel
>prices, general aviation traffic is way down. They don't really care
>what it is as long as they can log some takeoff and landings - to keep
>their jobs. Most would welcome a glider operation although there are
>some don't.
>
>There are many GA airports that could support a winch operation. Many
>have all the taxiways on one side of the runway which leaves a 10'
>strip of grass between the far edge of the runway and the row of edge
>lights - the rope can be pulled out there and be totally out of
>everyone's way. Gliders can be kept out of the way on a taxiway stub
>or on the grass until it's time to launch.
>
>The launch itself takes only about 35 - 45 seconds and the rope (not
>wire) doesn't "fall", it gets pulled onto the winch drum with the
>glider end with it's parachute falling right in front of the winch.
>Synthetic Spectra/Dyneema, unlike steel cable, wouldn't hurt anything
>if it were to fall on it anyway.
>
>There's usually room to park the winch well beyond the runway
>departure end in the over run area so the rope never lands on the
>"operations area". Airport managers have been known to temporarily
>remove runway end lights for a day's winch operation.
>
>Over all, a quick winch operation wouldn't need the runway and the
>airspace over it for more than 2 or 3 minutes. (I've seen heavy iron
>guys set on the runway waiting for departure clearance or maybe doing
>a checklist for much longer than that.)
>
>At the Fariboult, MN Municipal Airport, there was an enthusiastic
>crowd of airplane owners watching us.
>

Del C wrote:
> I agree with Bill that a winch launch shouldn't hold up other aircraft
> departures for more than a couple of minutes, and that aircraft can still
> land as long as they can land well short of where the cable is; they
> won't be able to safely do 'go-arounds' though.

No, no, no. Definitely no. Just a couple of weeks ago there has been a
fatality in Germany (or was it Austria?) exactly for this reason: A
pilot (experienced and local, for that matter) did a go around into the
winch cable. No chance.

There is absolutely no other traffic allowed as long as the winch cable
is in he air. Which also means: No winch launch as long as there is an
airplane in the final. No problem on a not so busy airfield, on a busy
place, there is some coordination and cooperation from all parties required.

At Lasham we still allow gliders and glider tugs to land while winch
launches are taking place, but they are unlikely to do a go-around and are
situationally aware.

To enable this to happen we place the winch and aerotow launch points some
500 yards in from the downwind boundary (it's a fairly large airfield), so
there is plenty of room to land short. This also means that gliders can
land short and taxi up to somewhere near the launch point to minimise
retrieving and that tugs don't have to back taxi.

We have dedicated launch point controllers to control all launches. If it
looks at all likely that an aircraft is going to land long, then he will
hold the launch.

I accept that this would not be possible at small airfields.

Derek Copeland

At 09:25 17 July 2009, John Smith wrote:
>Del C wrote:
>> I agree with Bill that a winch launch shouldn't hold up other
aircraft
>> departures for more than a couple of minutes, and that aircraft can
>still
>> land as long as they can land well short of where the cable is; they
>> won't be able to safely do 'go-arounds' though.
>
>No, no, no. Definitely no. Just a couple of weeks ago there has been a
>fatality in Germany (or was it Austria?) exactly for this reason: A
>pilot (experienced and local, for that matter) did a go around into the
>winch cable. No chance.
>
>There is absolutely no other traffic allowed as long as the winch cable
>is in he air. Which also means: No winch launch as long as there is an
>airplane in the final. No problem on a not so busy airfield, on a busy
>place, there is some coordination and cooperation from all parties
>required.
>

I would love to see wich operations at local GA aiports but seems to me the
length required (3X the expected altitude) is a problem. Currently I fly out
of a 2500 ft strip. there is amybe 500 ft pas the runway that is available
to locate the winch so 1000 release height is the most I could get. Not much
to find a thermal with in flat eastern noth carolina.

"bildan" > wrote in message
...
On Jul 15, 12:26 am, (Alan) wrote:
> In article > Don Johnstone
> > writes:
> >At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
> >>No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
> >>launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
> >>the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
> >>even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
> >>about that.
>
> >>My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
> >>should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
> >>suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
> >>winch is - if not more so.
>
> >>In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
> >>managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
> >>would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
> >>operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
> >>will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
> >>Tom
>
> >The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the
> >exception
> >of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from
> >an
> >established airport.
> >In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
> >airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
> >themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to
> >operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.
>
> >Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the
> >proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can
> >be very much shorter.
>
> >Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a
> >field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the
> >prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can
> >launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can
> >even bungey launch off it.
>
> I would have thought that the UK would have licensing requirements for
> airports,
> as many states here do. Before spending the money for the necessary
> improvements
> one would want to make sure that the start of activity would not be
> followed by
> a cease and desist order from the local or state government.
>
> Similarly, I would want to make very certain that the activity had
> appropriate
> insurance coverage; the insurance company will also most likely want to
> see proof
> of appropriate licensing.
>
> Getting approval would require finding an area where the potential
> neighbors
> would not be at local council meetings objecting to the activity and
> expressing
> their fear of these powerless aircraft plummeting into their houses.
>
> The cost would be substantial. I don't know the width requirement to have
> parking for aircrafts and cars as well as buildings/hangars, along with
> safe
> space for the rope/cable to fall after release (and hopefully some safe
> places
> for low releases to go), but if one were to guess 300 feet wide (probably
> too
> small) by 6000 feet long (for a 2000 foot cable), it comes out to over 41
> acres.
>
> I don't know how far from population centers one would have to go for
> this,
> but it would not work near here -- the land is just way too costly.
>
> Power pilots are very concerned about the closure of airports due to
> pressure
> from communities building up around them, and several are lost each year.
> Creating
> and opening replacements is just astoundingly difficult.
>
> Alan

My experience talking to local airport managers in the US is they are
desperate for more 'action' at their airports. At current fuel
prices, general aviation traffic is way down. They don't really care
what it is as long as they can log some takeoff and landings - to keep
their jobs. Most would welcome a glider operation although there are
some don't.

There are many GA airports that could support a winch operation. Many
have all the taxiways on one side of the runway which leaves a 10'
strip of grass between the far edge of the runway and the row of edge
lights - the rope can be pulled out there and be totally out of
everyone's way. Gliders can be kept out of the way on a taxiway stub
or on the grass until it's time to launch.

The launch itself takes only about 35 - 45 seconds and the rope (not
wire) doesn't "fall", it gets pulled onto the winch drum with the
glider end with it's parachute falling right in front of the winch.
Synthetic Spectra/Dyneema, unlike steel cable, wouldn't hurt anything
if it were to fall on it anyway.

There's usually room to park the winch well beyond the runway
departure end in the over run area so the rope never lands on the
"operations area". Airport managers have been known to temporarily
remove runway end lights for a day's winch operation.

Over all, a quick winch operation wouldn't need the runway and the
airspace over it for more than 2 or 3 minutes. (I've seen heavy iron
guys set on the runway waiting for departure clearance or maybe doing
a checklist for much longer than that.)

At the Fariboult, MN Municipal Airport, there was an enthusiastic
crowd of airplane owners watching us.

At 14:01 18 July 2009, john hawkins wrote:
>I would love to see wich operations at local GA aiports but seems to me
the
>
>length required (3X the expected altitude) is a problem. Currently I fly
>out
>of a 2500 ft strip. there is amybe 500 ft pas the runway that is
available
>
>to locate the winch so 1000 release height is the most I could get. Not
>much
>to find a thermal with in flat eastern noth carolina.
>
If you use a decent winch, such as a Skylaunch, and Dyneema cable you
should be able to get heights of about 45% of the cable run (2500 + 500 =
3000ft) in zero headwind. That should give you about 1300ft, and even
more if you can launch into a headwind.

I also fly from a flat site in the UK and can usually get away from such
heights (a bit more in our case as we have a longer run). You just have to
look hard for thermal clues, such as other gliders circling, birds taking
off, and newly forming cumulus clouds. Often the winch or the winch cable
will trigger off a thermal, so it is often worth turning downwind straight
off the top of the launch. This was a tip given to me by an old and very
talented soaring glider pilot many years ago. This is the thermal that
people always find (too low down to use) on the base leg, if they
initially head off upwind!

Derek Copeland